Bill Clinton's Birth Time

A few publicly-posted messages about
Bill Clinton's birth time, and related topics:

Subject: BACKGROUND ON THE 3:44 AM BIRTH TIME FOR BILL CLINTON
From: Ben Mabry <benmabry@home.com>
Message-ID: <34D3316E.B45E6B7E@home.com>
Date: 31 Jan 1998 00:00:00 UTC

The October/November, 1996, issue of the magazine _The Mountain
Astrologer_, in its monthly column "The Vedic Connection," printed the
article "Which Chart for Bill Clinton?" by Edith Hathaway
[ehjyotish"at"aol"dot"com, (505) 989-8465, P.O. Box 9609, Santa Fe, NM
87504]. Excerpts of that article, which I quote with her express
permission, follow here:

> In Lois Rodden's data base on Bill Clinton, a 3:44 a.m. birth time
> was prevalent until until late fall 1992, when Clinton's mother,
> Virginia Clinton Kelley, and others started speaking of 8:51 a.m. CST.
> Mrs. Kelley gave this time personally over the phone to astrologer Rob
> Hand, and sent a handwritten note to Lois Rodden verifying this data.
> A photo of Bill Clinton's birth certificate, showing a 3:44 a.m.
> birth time, was seen by a number of people, including astrologers. It
> was contained in a Bill Clinton biography in the Arkansas State Library.
> Unfortunately, no one made note of the title, and by the fall of 1992,
> when hundreds of astrologers called to verify the data, such a book was
> not to be found. It is interesting to note that the 3:44 a.m. time was
> being reported right through the spring of 1992, when it was not yet
> clear the Clinton candidacy was strong enough to beat the incumbent,
> President Bush. (Clinton declared his presidential candidacy October 3,
> 1991.) Could it be that the Clinton camp got wind of the astrological
> interest and fabricated a time that appeared better than the original?
> ....
> Some politicians are known to alter their birth times, especially
> when they know public prestige, status and electability can hang on
> them. In India, where astro-political forecasts are commonplace,
> politicians are known to be secretive about correct birth times. In the
> U. S., President Ronald Reagan, for one, a long-time user of astrology,
> was famous for throwing off astrologers on this point."

The October, 1995, issue of the magazine _Mercury Hour_ printed a letter
astrologer Rowena Wall [starstuff"at"starflash"dot"com,
<http://www.starflash.com/starstuff/>] wrote in June, 1995, excerpts of
which I quote here with her express permission:

< the beginning of the letter: >
> Edith [Edith Custer, the editor of _Mercury Hour_], I've been
> meaning to write for a couple of years now about Clinton's birth time.
> Ann Requa's letter (85/X/4) has finally prompted me to get with it.
>
> In January, 1992, when Clinton started his campaign, I asked my
> mother, who lives in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, to see if she could get his
> birth data. She is, by the way, a double Virgo, and a retired
> accountant, and never forgets numbers or birth dates.
>
> A few days later she called me with this information: Born August
> 9, 1946, 3:44 A.M. CST, Hope, Arkansas. I asked her how she got this so
> quickly and she said she had gotten her friend at the library to find it
> for her. There was a book there with his Birth Certificate in it, and
> the time was on it. This was apparently one of the official type
> biographies written about the Governor (of 12 years) of Arkansas. I
> quizzed her several times about the time, and she had absolutely NO
> doubt she had written it correctly. (If you knew my mother you would
> realize she just doesn't make errors in this type of thing.)
>
> I subsequently gave this information to several sources, including
> WTPE [_Welcome to Planet Earth_] Magazine. While this was going on,
> Clinton received the nomination and and was running hard. It was at
> about this time that the 8:51 time started being used. When Clinton got
> the nomination, I asked mother to go back to the library and get a copy
> of the birth certificate from the book. When she got there, the friend
> at the library said they didn't have that book anymore. Subsequent
> visits and calls were met with disclaimers of ever even HAVING the book
> by the supervisor of the area. It is unfortunate that mother didn't get
> the exact title; all she knew is that it was a book about Clinton's
> life. (Most states have such books about their governors, especially
> those who have served such long terms.)
>
> By this time, I had discussed this situation with a number of
> astrologers, and of course we all wanted the birth certificate. I've
> been told HUNDREDS of astrologers have called the library in Pine Bluff
> along with the library in Little Rock trying to get a copy of the book
> that mysteriously vanished. The Arkansans were mystified as to why
> these people would even want such information!
>
> Lois Rodden was given the 8:51 time at some point and this has been
> the time that has been used officially.
>
> Now comes Ann Requa with a statement that more closely matches the
> 3:44 A.M. time. I would hypothesize that that the doctor was finished a
> bit after dawn, but the actual birth would be 3:44 A.M. .... ....
> ....
> .... .... .... ....
>
> Of course, even the 3:44 time could be off a few minutes. ....
> .... .... ....
> .... .... ....
> ....
>
> Now I realize that the "evidence" is gone, and of course this time
> would come into question. But throughout the years, many leaders have
> lied or misled about their birth data, including Ronald Reagan who was
> most secretive about his. Apparently leaders believe that if their
> enemies should have the correct time that they could use it against
> them. Therefore, they don't make it available.
>
> If you will work with this chart, I think you will be surprised at
> how well it fits him; progressions to it also fit his life very
> accurately. I know several groups that are using this and they find it
> to be most accurate. I hope that you will at least give it a try."
< : the end of the letter >

My thanks go not only to Edith Hathaway and Rowena Wall, but also to my
friend astrologer Mikki Sligh for her logistical work on my little
project here.

To my mind it is too conspiracy-theoretical to think that the Clinton
team would have *already* doctored the birth time in the governor's
biography, and many of us have already read on this group more than once
that Bill's mother first gave 6:30 AM, second 7:30 AM (a time which
allegedly Bill at least once also gave publicly), and third 8:51 AM --
certainly not *all* from birth certificate nor from clear memory! ~:)~

We could argue endlessly over which one of these times better fits Bill
Clinton's true astrological circumstances.

Stick with 8:51 AM if you wish, but I, for one, have not done so!

Happy astrologizing, all!

Yours in the Cause of Truth, Beauty, and Goodness,
Ben Mabry

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Subject: Accurate Birth Data; & Linda Tripp/Paula Jones
From: starsic@aol.com
Message-ID: <886328708.1029636108@dejanews.com>
Date: 01 Feb 1998 00:00:00 UTC

Open Letter to My Fellow Astrologers:

Dear Compatriots,

I have read with interest the messages concerning Bill Clinton's time
of birth.

Ordinarily, when two different birth times are given - all else being
equal, I would choose the earlier one, and experiment with that first,
prior to rectification. Of course it depends upon the source of the
information!

Lois Rodden gives preference to whatever is on the birth certificate.
Ordinarily, I would agree with that. But don't count on it! I'll tell
you why, as I told Lois some months ago, in a telephone conversation:

Years ago, I had occasion to visit a dermatologist. He had seen me on
TV a few times, so had some questions about my work. I mentioned how
important the time of birth is, in erecting a chart. He replied that he
had done a lot of obstetrical work in the early days of his practice, and
confessed to having been "very remiss" in recording birth-times for
newborns. He stated: "I used to get all the birth certificates together
at the end of the week, and fill them out. For 'time of birth', I'd just
write down whatever popped into my head!"

I should have decked him, then and there!

I'm hoping that this dermatologist is the exception, rather than the
rule. But, in the delivery room, doctors are pretty busy, and most have
scant appreciation of the importance of the birth time to us astrologers;
and may not care anyway. In most modern hospitals, babies are
foot-printed and banded immediately after birth. But if the time is
recorded, as it should be - it may be some minutes after delivery, after
the most pressing tasks have been performed. It could be ten minutes or
more, before anyone gets around to looking at the clock! But at least in
such cases, we have something to go on. Better than no clue at all!

Where there is doubt, especially if there's no recorded time on the
birth certificate, I'm inclined to heed the mother's report. She had to
be there! Even then, much depends upon whether or not she was conscious
at the time; and even if conscious (most mothers are) - the degree of
mental clarity at the time. Also, there is the question of how long ago
the birth occurred (when the mother is questioned); and if age or other
things have impaired her memory.

So, what to believe? If the mother, or father, grandmother, or other
relative present is an astrologer, and gets the exact time then and there
- I'd take the reported birth-time as gospel. Otherwise - it's up for
grabs!

As for Bill Clinton's birth-time, and the two different birth-times
given by his mother - then finally the 8:51 a.m. time - I can understand
how such confusion can arise. I have had many clients give different
birth-times, before a correct one was finally arrived at. Which of you
hasn't had similar experiences?

My husband, for instance, showed me his birth certificate, which gave a
birth-time of 4:57 a.m. Some time later, his mother came across, in his
baby book, a little card given to her when she left the hospital, with
the birth-time noted as 4:47 a.m. Twenty-six years of working with his
chart indicates that the earlier time is the correct one!

Mothers don't always attach much importance to the birth-time, until
some astrologer tries to pin her down years later! It may be that Bill's
mother first tried to accommodate astrologers by searching her memory
banks, and came up first with 6:30 a.m., then 7:30 a.m.. A birth-time
given right on the hour, or on the half-hour, is always suspect, in my
opinion. The third time, she came up with something much more exact -
8:51 a.m. Where did that come from? We can only guess. Did she, like
my mother-in-law, and no small number of my clients, come across
something written down, near the time of his birth? As for the birth
certificate - when was it filled out, and by whom?

Somehow I find the 3:44 a.m. time difficult to believe. Saturn smack
on his natal Ascendant? Possible, but it just doesn't look right to me.
If all the tales of his sexploits turn out to be true - then
Mars-Venus-Neptune conjunct a Libra Ascendant sounds more likely! Using
the 8:51 a.m. time also produces, via progressions and transits, a
picture that fits current events precisely!

Now we hear that Clinton has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize -
just as the tail is about to wag the dog, and take us to the brink of a
nasty war! If Monica Lewinsky's version of events, as recorded on those
tapes, turns out to be true - then apparently he has already had his
"Piece Prize". But it is apt to cost him, Big Time!

Yet of course, we must withhold judgment, as there is still so much
that doesn't add up. We hear that Monica recorded hours of Clinton's
telephone calls. That is so easy to do! What good is it, having Secret
Service people to protect him, if he really took such reckless chances?
Could Clinton possibly have imagined that some silly boasting bimbo
wouldn't talk, and keep souvenirs?

So, having said all that - does anyone have the birth data for Linda
Tripp and/or Paula Jones? They, too, are key players in that sad
spectacle, euphemistically called the "White House Crisis".

Speaking of Paula Jones - there are her claims that Clinton's "private
parts" (not all that private anymore) - show "distinguishing
characteristics".

I spoke to my (double Leo) son on the phone the other day, and of
course today's #1 topic came up. His assessment:

"During Watergate, Nixon's defense to the American people was, 'I am
not a crook!'

"Clinton's? Perhaps his will be: 'I am not crooked!'"

Now where did that diabolical cynicism of his come from? No, no -
don't look at me! I had nothing to do with it!

Best wishes to all,

STARSIC

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Subject: Astro-Analysis: Forbes, Clinton and Dole
From: "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@sonitech.com>
Message-ID: <4fb4er$6tr@sundog.tiac.net>
Date: 07 Feb 1996 00:00:00 UTC

Contents:
~~~~~~~~
Introduction; Disclaimer; Warning; On Clinton; On Dole; On Forbes;
Summary; A Request for Information; Thanks.

Introduction:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am a Vedic/Hindu/Indian astrologer specializing in "timing of events". For
sometime now, I've been looking at the horoscopes of several presidential
candidates, trying to figure out who had the best chance at the presidential
election, 1996.

I wasn't too impressed with Clinton's horoscope and didn't think he stood a
good chance to be re-elected. Then I looked at Bob Dole's horoscope very
enthusiastically, thinking he HAD to be THE man. But I was surprised to see
that his best time was over in the last 2 years and he doesn't stand a good
chance now! WHO is the man then??!! I kept wondering....

It was then that I ran into the birth details of Mr.Forbes! He, according to
my analysis, has the best chance....

In this article, I'll briefly analyze the horoscopes of Clinton, Dole and
Forbes.

Disclaimer:
~~~~~~~~~~
The stuff here is of speculative nature. It need not come true. All I can say
is that the analysis that follows is the result of a honest and sincere
intellectual exrcise in the true spirit of an often-abused/misused branch of
knowledge called "astrology".

Astrology is a science of natural tendencies. It's just a study of the
"gravity towards destiny", so to put it. Astrology has its limitations
and, more importantly, _astrologer_ has his/her limitations....

So don't get carried away by this....

Warning:
~~~~~~~
The stuff hereafter will contain several technical words and details that may not
be clear to all. There's a "Summary" at the end for readers not familiar with
astrology.

On Clinton:
~~~~~~~~~~
There's some controversy in Clinton's birth time (8:51 am and 3:44 am). I
have looked at both and 3:44 am doesn't make much sense.

If his birth time was 3:44 am (on Aug 19, 1946), Ascendant is in Cancer
and the lord of 3rd and 12th Mercury and the lord of 7th and 8th Saturn
are in ascendant. With Saturn being so close to Ascendant, there should
be a strong Saturnine influence on his physique. But I don't see any.
When he was elected, he had Saturn sub-period in Jupiter period running.
Jupiter was radical in Libra with 3 out of 8 points in his Ashtakavarga
there (which is fine) and Saturn in Capricorn with just 1 out of 8
points. It's unlikely that such a weak Saturn would give power!!

Whereas if the birth time was 8:51 am, Ascendant is Virgo and has Mars
and debilitated Venus. I can see Martian and Mercurian (and, to a small
extent, Venusian) features in him. It makes sense. When he was elected,
he had Mercury sub-period in Jupiter period running. Mercury is the lord
of the house of profession and is in the house of material gains, with
Saturn, in the constellation of Saturn (Saturn is the planet for "masses"
and the lord of the house of reputation here). Jupiter is vargottama
(very strong) in the house of money, aspecting the house of profession.
So it's a very important time in his career and that makes sense!

So let me assume this birth time for the rest of the article.

From July 1994, Venus sub-period started for Clinton. Though Venus has
good ownerships and neecha bhanga (cancellation of debilitation) and
participates in a good yoga called "Adhi Yoga" with Jupiter, he's in 12th
w.r.t. Jupiter and is afflicted by Mars, the lord of 3rd and 8th. He's
aspected by Saturn, the lord of 6th. He's, in fact, likely to give bad
results like litigation, bad health, loss of reputation etc. Venus is
unlikely to get him re-elected.

He will have Saturn, the significator for masses, in the house of loss
from Feb 16, 1996. I haven't heard of a political leader who succeeded
when his Saturn was so weak....

Let us look at the Annual Charts (of the Hindu Tajaka system) of Clinton.
His chart for 1992-93 has to be prepared for 3:59 am (CST) on Aug 19,
1992 at his birth place (that's when Sun enters the radical position -
position at birth). Ascendant and muntha (annual progressed ascendant)
are in Cancer and their lord Moon is the 10th. Lord of 10th Mars is in
the house of material gains in Moon's navamsa and constellation. Lord of
"Rajya Saham" (sensitive point in the zodiac signifying "getting a
kingdom" (in that year)) Saturn is in the saham, in Moon's constellation
and navamsa. Thus Moon is highly capable of doing good to him (especially
to his career) during that year. He became the President of USA during
the _Moon_ period in that year!!

Clinton's annual chart for 1996-97 has to be made for 4:29 am on Aug 19,
1996. Ascendant is in Cancer again, but muntha (the annual progressed
ascendant) is in Scorpio. The lord of muntha and the 10th, Mars, is in
the house of losses. That's not indicative of a great victory this year.
At the time of the election, he has Saturn's period. Saturn is retrograde
in the house of fortune, afflicted by the nodes. He's aspected by the
exalted lord of the house of loss and 3rd, Mercury. He owns the 8th
house. All these may indicate a graceful fall.

On Dole:
~~~~~~~
Dole has the Venus period from 1980 till 1999. Venus, though in 3rd in
Gemini (in the navamsa (9th harmonic) of the lord of 8th), has 7 points
(out of 8) in his own ashtakavarga in Gemini. He's capable of doing good
to Dole, but that capability is somewhat restricted.

Saturn is very strong in the 6th in Dole's chart and Dole had Saturn's
sub-period from late 1992 till Oct 1995. That was a very good period for
him. Now, however, he has Mercury's sub-period. Mercury owns the 3rd and
6th houses and joins Mars, the lord of 8th. He's too afflicted to make
Dole the leader of the world's most powerful nation....

Let us look at Dole's annual Tajaka chart for 1996-97 (5:10 pm on July
21, 1996, at his birth place). Lord of the Ascendant (Scorpio) Mars in
the 8th. Lord of 10th Sun is in 12th (loss) to 10th! At the time of the
presidential election, he has Saturn's period running. In the chart,
Saturn is in 5th in retrogression. These don't indicate anything
great....

It may be worthwhile to look at his chart for 1995-96 (11:03 am on July
22, 1995). Lord of Ascendant (Virgo) and muntha (annual progressed
ascendant) (Gemini) is Mercury. He is in the house of profession (own
house). He joins with vargottama (very strong) Venus, who owns the houses
of money and fortune. So Mercury and Venus periods (first half of 1996)
can be good for his career!

Judging all the strengths and weaknesses, one could perhaps conclude that
Dole will NOT be the president, but there is SOME chance that he'll be
able to secure the Republican candidacy this month.

On Forbes:
~~~~~~~~~
He is running Moon's sub-period in the period of Venus. In November,
Moon's sub-period will end and that of Mars will start.

Moon has the highest strength (based on the Hindu Shadbala theory) in his
horoscope. Venus is very strong too (associated with the lord of the
houses of money and reputation). Moon is associated (vargottama in own
house!!) with the yogakaraka (giver of fortune) Saturn and Sun. Saturn is
a significator for mass following and Sun for political power. So the
Moon sub-period in Venus period DOES have the potential to make him
president. (The transit of Venus at the time of presidential elections is
good too.) There ARE some rajayogas (combinations producing kings/
powerful people) in the horoscope.

Now let us look at the annual horoscopes.

Tajaka chart for 1995-96 is for 7:41am on July 18, 1995. Ascendant is
Leo. Muntha is in the house of profession. Lord Venus is in the house of
gains with its lord Mercury!! So the periods of Mercury (1995 Jan 31-June
19) and Venus (June 21-July 18) have to be really good!!

Chart for 1996-97 is for 2:03 pm on July 17, 1996. Ascendant is Libra.
Muntha is in the house of fortune. Its lord Mercury is in the house of
profession, exalted in navamsa!! He's with the royal plantes - Sun, the
lord of the house of gains, and Moon, the lord of the house of profession
(the latter in Mercury's constellation)!! This certainly indicates great
things in that year! Mercury's period runs from Aug 11, 1996 till Nov
end. That period will be very good!! Even the Saturn period following it
will be good, as Saturn is a yoga karaka for the year and is in the 6th
in own constellation.

Rajya saham (sensitive point of Tajaka system, signifying "getting a
kingdom") in this chart is Cancer 5 degrees, just between Sun and Mercury
(lords of 9th and 11th). This strongly denotes HIGHLY favorable results
in his public life and career.

There is a strong chance of Steve Forbes being the next president of USA
- his birth chart has some good indications and, moreover, his annual
chart (for 1996-97) has very very clear indications!!

Summary:
~~~~~~~
(1) The chances of a Clinton re-election are dim (15%).

(2) Dole MAY win Republican nomination, but he may NOT win the actual
election. Dole's chances of being the next president of USA are very
dim (5%).

(3) Forbes's chances of coming to power this year are very bright (75%).

A Request for Information:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would appreciate it if you could give me the birth details (time, date
and place) of former USA presidents, with the dates of election. That
will help me in my astrology research.

Thanks:
~~~~~~
My sincere thanks are due, to Susan Santomieri (susansan@ix.netcom.com)
for supplying me with the birth data of the presidential candidates.

PVR

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